he visits the iniquities of the fathers

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What is the iniquity of the fathers in Exodus 34:7?

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24 Bible Verses about Sins Of The Fathers

Most relevant verses.

“Your first forefather sinned, And your spokesmen have transgressed against Me.

You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,

who keeps lovingkindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations.”

‘The Lord is slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, forgiving iniquity and transgression; but He will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generations.’

You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, and on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,

“You say, ‘God stores away a man’s iniquity for his sons.’ Let God repay him so that he may know it.

“Prepare for his sons a place of slaughter Because of the iniquity of their fathers. They must not arise and take possession of the earth And fill the face of the world with cities.”

Both their own iniquities and the iniquities of their fathers together,” says the Lord . “Because they have burned incense on the mountains And scorned Me on the hills, Therefore I will measure their former work into their bosom.”

“In those days they will not say again, ‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes, And the children’s teeth are set on edge.’

“What do you mean by using this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, ‘The fathers eat the sour grapes, But the children’s teeth are set on edge’?

who shows lovingkindness to thousands, but repays the iniquity of fathers into the bosom of their children after them, O great and mighty God. The Lord of hosts is His name;

Our fathers sinned, and are no more; It is we who have borne their iniquities.

From men with Your hand, O Lord , From men of the world, whose portion is in this life, And whose belly You fill with Your treasure; They are satisfied with children, And leave their abundance to their babes.

“You will not be united with them in burial, Because you have ruined your country, You have slain your people. May the offspring of evildoers not be mentioned forever.

Will you judge them, will you judge them, son of man? Make them know the abominations of their fathers;

“The Lord was very angry with your fathers.

Be glad in that day and leap for joy, for behold, your reward is great in heaven. For in the same way their fathers used to treat the prophets.

Woe to you when all men speak well of you, for their fathers used to treat the false prophets in the same way.

And His disciples asked Him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he would be born blind?”

“Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin.

But the sons of the slayers he did not put to death, according to what is written in the book of the Law of Moses, as the Lord commanded, saying, “The fathers shall not be put to death for the sons, nor the sons be put to death for the fathers; but each shall be put to death for his own sin.”

“Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity?’ When the son has practiced justice and righteousness and has observed all My statutes and done them, he shall surely live.

The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.

he keeps his hand from the poor, does not take interest or increase, but executes My ordinances, and walks in My statutes; he will not die for his father’s iniquity, he will surely live.

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• Bad Parents
• Fathers Responsibilities
• Fathers, Sin Of The
• Generations
• Parents Being Wrong
• Parents Sin
• Responsibility, To God
• Sin Brings Sickness
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Does “God Visit the Iniquities of the Fathers” on the “Third & Fourth Generations”?

Greg interprets a commonly misunderstood and difficult passage by looking at the details of the context.

Radio Caller: There’s at least four places in the Old Testament that talk about the Lord visiting the sins of the Father unto the third and fourth generations. Can you work through figuring out what that’s about?

Greg: Let’s talk about that for a few moments. I think this is a good example of a “Never Read a Bible Verse” kind of application. I actually think this is a little bit of a difficult passage to figure out. Two things to look at. It’s made more difficult because it’s usually quoted in part, and not in whole. It is misquoted, and the details of even what is quoted are not attended to. So entire ministries, whole enterprises, have been built on a big misunderstanding about this passage. Even if someone doesn’t know what a passage means, it may possible to figure out what the passage does not mean.

The way this is usually cited—it comes up first in Exodus 20, which is the Ten Commandments—is that people say we know that “the sins of the fathers are visited on the children to the third and fourth generation.” What this is commonly said to mean is that you may have ancestral curses because of the activities of your fathers, your ancestors. Generally, these activities have to do with extreme sin or occult involvement, but it may also be having an abortion. This then results in something bad happening to an individual because of this other person’s sinful activity.

The application of this is that someone is going through something really hard and has a besetting sin or problem that they can’t get rid of, and it is suggested to them that there is a spiritual dynamic that is tied to the teaching of this verse. There is a generational sin and curse that then must be broken through some spiritual discipline of some sort. Some have gone to great extent, written whole books, on how to unwind this spiritual oppression coming from past generations. They step you through all these little exercises. Does this sound familiar?

Caller: Yes.

Greg: Now, let’s go back to the verse, Exodus 20:5–6: “You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord, your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments” (NASB).

That’s the whole quote. That’s a lot more than most people who know about this verse have ever heard. Let me ask you a question. This visiting of the sins of the father on the children, whatever that means, whatever that “visiting” is, who is the active agent? God is doing the visiting. So, if you have a technique to undo this activity, who are you fighting? God. What could be more obvious?

I don’t know exactly what’s going on here, but God is doing it. And if you try to undo it, you are fighting God. There is no technique, there is no prayer, there is no spiritual enterprise that you’re going to be able to invoke against this because anyone who is doing so will be fighting God.

Now keep in mind, I am saying that whatever is going on here is God’s doing. There may be legitimate spiritual problems people are having that people should be praying about, but whatever spiritual problems they’re having may not at all be related to this. And, if they are, and what they’re experiencing is an example of the outworking of this declaration by God, then they are fighting God by trying to undo it.

So then what is going on? Well, we know that God is a jealous God. They are not to worship idols. He says then He will do something and this is very odd. He will visit the “iniquities of the father on the children, on the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me.”

We have a father. We have a child, first generation. We have a grandson, second generation. We have a great-grandson, third generation. So God is only visiting the iniquity on the son, the great-grandson, and the great-great grandson. Doesn’t it seem odd that he says third and fourth, and not second? Now maybe he means to the third and fourth so that it’s just for four generations before this peters out. Maybe. Verse 6 says, “but showing lovingkindness to thousands to those who love me and keep my commandments.”

Caller: But that’s a big part of my question. That thousands doesn’t seem to be thousands generations, that the third and fourth are. I wasn’t sure that the thousands meant thousands of generations or if it just meant thousands.

Greg: This is where it’s helpful to go back to some of the other four places where this same concept is quoted here.

Caller: It’s always the same word there. The word thousand doesn’t look like it has the “generation” in there.

Greg: It could mean thousands of generations. That could be a vagueness. But what is clear is there is a contrast between third and fourth generations, and thousands. Now what do you think God intends to be the greater number, those in the third and fourth generations or those in thousands?

Caller: The point is that His lovingkindness is so much greater.

Greg: Oh, God bless you! “...On the children, and on the third and fourth generations of those who hate me.” Notice the qualifier. “...And showing lovingkindness to thousands to those who love me and keep my commandments.”

Now what does the history of Israel demonstrate? It demonstrates that when God deals with Israel, He deals with them as a nation. When the fathers, the ones in control, the adults are bad, everybody gets the punishment. It’s not because the children are singled out to be punished for the sins of the father. In fact, there’s an entire chapter, Ezekiel 18, one whole chapter that is meant to repudiate that concept.

The way the chapter starts is, “You have a saying, ‘The fathers eat the sour grapes, but the children’s teeth are set on edge.’” Do you see the play on words here? The fathers do it, but the children get the result. God says to quit saying that thing because I’m not going to punish the kids for what the parents do wrong.

That’s different, I think, from dealing with the nation as a whole. When the nation as a whole is rebellious and idolatrous, which is what the Exodus passage is about, God punishes the nation.

Even though Elijah found out there were still 5,000 people who had not bent their knee to Baal, still the nation was a nation of Baal-worshipers so they were punished by God as a nation. The kids got it just like the parents. As long as the group as a whole continued in that, God would punish them. And He did until you got a king and a people that reformed the nation. Then God blesses them. There were reformers like Hezekiah and Manasseh, later in his life. There were these times when this happened. Then God’s lovingkindness was abundant.

In Exodus, God is talking about how He’s going to deal with the nation. After all, this is the Mosaic Covenant with the nation of Israel, so He’s setting up the blessings and curses for the nation as a whole based on how they keep up their end of the covenant. They should not be idolatrous because He’s a jealous God, and if they’re idolatrous they’re going to be punished. And this is the way He characterizes the consequences, “You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord, your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.” If you keep hating me, I’ll keep punishing you for it.

However, He will show lovingkindness to thousands to those who love Him and keep His commandments. He’s emphasizing His long suffering and His mercy over and against His justice and wrath.

He does that many times in the Old Testament text. He is abundant in lovingkindness; He is slow to anger. And I think that’s what is really going on in this passage. He’s laying out the consequences for worshiping false idols, and He’s contrasting His great lovingkindness with his wrath. That’s my take on it.

Caller: So you think the point the contrast that His lovingkindness is much greater than his anger?

Greg: I think the reason He says third and fourth generations versus thousands is to show that one is greater than the other. He’s speaking in general terms here, not specific numbers.

One father does it; one kid gets it. That’s excluded by the Ezekiel passage that teaches against the idea that a child is punished for his parents’ sin. God is talking about the nation of Israel in Exodus, the group as a whole, as He’s making a covenant with them that has obligations on each side. He is expressing His judgement on them for their idolatry, which shows they hate Him, and He will continue to do that generation to generation to generation as long as they hate Him.

This verse is a linguistic device, a poetic devise if you will, “visit the iniquity of the father on the children, and on the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me.” But for those who don’t hate Him but do love Him and do keep His commandments, He’s going to pour out His grace and lovingkindness to the nation.

I think there’s a kind of literary device that’s going on in the verse. It is not about individual people who receive generational sins or curses; it’s a covenant for how God will deal with the Nation depending on whether they hate or love Him.

Greg Koukl—Old Testament Law and Christians

Downplaying god’s wrath, the bible: reading the “ordinary” way.

The Sins of Our Fathers

This passage in exodus is the most referenced throughout the bible..

The Lord, the Lord, a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness, keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin.

It’s not hard to understand why this passage in Exodus is the most referenced Scripture throughout the Hebrew Bible — who doesn’t want to be reminded of some of the most beautiful aspects of God’s character? It’s wonderful, gracious, and encouraging.

It makes the next words in the passage all the more challenging (and potentially shocking).

[God] does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth [generation]. (Exodus 34:7b)

So does God hold us accountable for the mistakes our parents make? These verses in Exodus seem to say so. And this seems a little harsh, right? It’s one thing to say we are shaped by our parents — we all know that. We inherit things like physical features, health issues, mannerisms, and ways of viewing the world from them. It is clear that who our parents are, and even the choices they make, affect us greatly. But will we really be punished for something our parents did?

In this text, we’re confronted with the intimidating concept of generational accountability. But if we dig a little deeper, we’ll see that God isn’t saying he’ll bring his wrath upon totally innocent children for their parents’ actions. God is warning his people that each generation will be held accountable if they repeat the sins of the previous generation.

God’s Justice is About a Covenant of Love

First, let’s look at the context. Like any challenging biblical claim, this verse doesn’t come out of nowhere. In fact, it’s set against the backdrop of an extremely important description of God’s character.

Exodus 34 finds Moses at the top of Mount Sinai, formalizing Israel’s covenant relationship with God while everyone else stays below. God has just rescued the Israelites from slavery and oppression in Egypt, and the covenant relationship he’s forging with Israel will display his loving character to the nations. God is investing heavily in this group of people, and he is requiring that they, in turn, live a certain way.

But this is actually Moses’ second time atop Mount Sinai, formalizing Israel’s covenant with God. He had already spent 40 days and 40 nights atop the mountain with God (Exodus 24-32), and during his absence, the Israelites got impatient and scared. Could they really trust God would provide for them? Why was Moses taking so long?

Before Moses even made it back down the mountain, the Israelites took matters into their own hands.

When the people saw that Moses was so long in coming down from the mountain, they gathered around Aaron and said, “Come, make us gods who will go before us. As for this fellow Moses who brought us up out of Egypt, we don’t know what has happened to him.” Aaron answered them, “Take off the gold earrings that your wives, your sons and your daughters are wearing, and bring them to me.” So all the people took off their earrings and brought them to Aaron. He took what they handed him and made it into an idol cast in the shape of a calf, fashioning it with a tool. Then they said, “These are your gods, Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.” (Exodus 32:1-4)

Israel created an idol to take the place of God while God was forming an eternal covenant relationship with them. Talk about insulting! This is like the bride kissing a groomsman during her wedding ceremony. God is understandably angry.

Astonishingly, God decides to continue his partnership with Israel — not because of their merit but because of his grace, compassion, and loyal love.

But he wants Israel to know his patience is not an excuse to continue in this type of betrayal. God’s words on generational accountability are part of a larger statement he makes to Moses about his character, when Moses goes back up the mountain.

Yahweh, Yahweh — A God compassionate and gracious, Slow to anger, Abounding in loyal love and faithfulness. He maintains loyal love for thousands, Forgiving iniquity, transgression, and sins. But he won’t declare innocent the guilty. He will bring the iniquities of the fathers upon the third and the fourth. (Exodus 34:6-7)

With this context in mind, we can understand why God is thinking about the future of Israel and the likelihood that they will continue to violate the terms of the covenant. God is in this relationship with Israel for the long haul. He knows that each new generation is going to betray him like the last, and he is making clear that future generations will still be held accountable to his covenant terms.

The bottom line is that God’s love wouldn’t be truly loving without God’s justice . So this passage, which at first appears harsh, is really about God preserving his covenant of love with humanity.

So Who’s Responsible for What?

Why does God say he will hold each generation accountable to “the third and the fourth?” What does this even mean? Is the fifth generation off the hook?

“Third and fourth” is a Hebrew idiom that means “for whatever number it takes.”

God (of course) was right about the trajectory of the Israelites. Generations after this first proclamation of generational accountability in Exodus 34, Israel betrays their covenant so many times that they find themselves in exile. The prophet Jeremiah reflects on their exile with language from God’s statement in Exodus.

I prayed to the Lord, saying: “Ah, Lord God! It is you who have made the heavens and the earth by your great power and by your outstretched arm! Nothing is too hard for you. You show steadfast love to thousands, but you repay the guilt of fathers to their children after them, O great and mighty God, whose name is the Lord of hosts, great in counsel and mighty in deed, whose eyes are open to all the ways of the children of man, rewarding each one according to his ways and according to the fruit of his deeds.” (Jeremiah 32:16-19)

Jeremiah reflects on God’s statement in Exodus, “you repay the guilt of fathers to their children after them,” but then he continues to make clear what this really means. God will reward each person according to his ways and according to the fruit of his deeds.

In other words, Israel finds themselves in exile because the current generation repeated the sins of their fathers: the betrayal of the covenant.

God’s heart isn’t about punishing people. This verse makes clear that God does not punish children for their parents’ sins. God does not punish a new generation for the sins of a former generation. But God does hold children who don’t learn from their parents’ mistakes accountable. It is the responsibility of every generation to not repeat the mistakes of those that came before them.

And don’t miss the contrast God makes in these verses. Generational accountability lasts through the “third and fourth” generation, but God’s loyal love lasts for “thousands” of generations.

Remembering the Past Helps Us Not Repeat It

The children of Israel discovered firsthand what we have all seen in our own lives. We may not be responsible for our parents’ mistakes, but we still have to deal with the consequences of their choices.

This reality should be both sobering and hopeful.

For example, those with addiction or abuse in their family trees have already had to deal with the consequences of the mistakes of their parents or grandparents. It is not easy, but when people with this kind of family background put in the remarkable effort to live their lives differently, the redemptive work of God shines all the brighter. When we observe brokenness within our families and choose a different path, one that aligns with God’s redemptive plan for humanity, we can see clearly the loyal love of God.

Hundreds of times throughout Scripture God gives his people the commandment to remember ─ remember where they came from, remember slavery and exile, remember God’s work of deliverance and his promises for the future.

For Israel (and for us too), remembering the sins of our parents is the key to doing things differently. Denying that something bad happened in the past is a dangerous step toward prolonging harmful patterns and cycles within our families and communities. And when we choose denial, we don’t leave room for celebrating God’s redemptive work. Remembering, and sometimes grieving, the seasons of “exile” in our lives and the sins of our pasts is the first step towards celebrating the deliverance God has woven into our stories.

When we rightly remember past wrongs, we open ourselves up to the opportunity to do things differently in our own lives and in the lives of future generations, and we create space to celebrate God’s miraculous, loyal love.

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Exodus 34:7; Numbers 14:18; Psalm 79:8; Psalm 109:14; Isaiah 65:6–7; Jeremiah 32:18

7  g keeping steadfast love for thousands , 1 h forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin , but i who will by no means clear the guilty , j visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children and the children’s children , to the third and the fourth generation . ”

18  f ‘ The L ord is slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love , forgiving iniquity and transgression , but he will by no means clear the guilty , g visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children , to the third and the fourth generation . ’

8  p Do not remember against us q our former iniquities ; 1

let your compassion come speedily to meet us ,

for we are r brought very low .

14  May p the iniquity of his fathers be remembered before the L ord ,

and let not the sin of his mother be q blotted out !

6  Behold , m it is written before me :

n “ I will not keep silent , but I will repay ;

o I will indeed repay into their lap

7  both your iniquities p and your fathers’ iniquities together ,

says the L ord ;

q because they made offerings on the mountains

q and insulted me on the hills ,

I will measure into their lap

payment for their former deeds . ” 1

18  j You show steadfast love to thousands , j but you repay the guilt of fathers k to their children after them , O great and l mighty God , whose name is the m L ord of hosts ,

Leviticus 19:27

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Exodus 34:7

What does exodus 34:7 mean.

God Visiting Iniquity on Children

Ray Foucher Blog 3 Comments

“Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me ;” (Exo 20:5)

It sounds like God, in such cases, would be exacting extreme revenge – not just punishing the offender but also their children and their grandchildren and their great grandchildren etc.

Does God do that? If you had something bad happen to you this week was it God punishing you for something your great grandfather did? No. Scripture tells us clearly that God does not actively punish the children for the sins of the parents.

“The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.” (Deut 24:6)

“But the children of the murderers he slew not: according unto that which is written in the book of the law of Moses, wherein the LORD commanded, saying, The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, nor the children be put to death for the fathers; but every man shall be put to death for his own sin.” (2 Kings 14:6)

So what is going on here? The warning in the second commandment sounds like God will impose a degree of punishment on children for the sins of their fathers but this is in direct contradiction to the verses above as well the same principle that is laid out in detail in Ezekiel chapter 18.

The key to understanding this is that “the visiting the iniquity” is describing a natural consequence, which God allows to occur or does not intervene to prevent rather than an active punishment from God. There is now considerable scientific evidence of this. For example, there are natural and devastating consequences for multiple generations of the children of an alcoholic who comes home and beats his children every night.

There is a good explanation of this in a commentary:

“ Visiting the iniquity. This seeming threat has disturbed the minds of some who see in it the manifestation of a vengeful spirit. A distinction should be made however, between the natural results of a sinful course of action, and punishment inflicted because of it … God does not penalize one individual for the wrong deeds of another (Eze. 18:2-24). Each man stands before God, responsible only for his own acts. At the same time God does not interfere with the laws of heredity in such a way as to protect one generation from the misdeeds of its fathers, as that would be inconsistent with His character and His principles of dealing with men. It is only through the laws of heredity, which were of course ordained by the Creator in the beginning (See Gen. 1:21, 24, 25), that divine justice visits the ‘iniquity’ of one generation upon the next.” (SDA BC vol. 1, p603, comment on Exodus 20:5)

God does “punish” to the fourth generation only in the sense that He allows natural consequences to occur. This is consistent with the intended meaning in other cases where God is said to punish when, in fact, He is merely allowing the consequences of sin to run their natural course.

This is another example of God saying that He did or will do something when He is merely allowing it to happen.

See more examples of “ God taking the blame. “

Ray Foucher

→ Ray Foucher

I do, to some extent, agree with your point here. Although I do not agree with your interpretation of the phrase. I do not have the time to thoroughly expand on this point, but I will give you enough for you to ponder the character of the God we are talking about.

Genesis 3:8 – God is walking in the garden, Adam and Eve hide. The one time in history when God should have been furious (and rightly so!) about the sin of a human. How does God respond to them?

Genesis 3:9 – God asks “where are you?” Is God unaware of where they are? Is God asking this question so that they will reveal themselves to him because he is having a hard time finding them?

So why did God ask this question? Why was God’s first response to their sin the question “where are you?”

The word “visit”, in Hebrew, has the same positive and negative connotation as the English word does. Example 1: If your friend takes your brand new car for a joy ride and crashes it, you might “pay him a visit”. Example 2: if your friend has been in a car crash and is in the hospital on life support, you might “pay him a visit”. The first is a negative example, the second positive.

If we take the text as it is written “visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children” (NASB), then we must ask who is visiting. What is that person visiting? And in this case, who is that person visiting that thing upon?

God is visiting the impact of the parents gross injustice/wicked act (“Iniquity” – https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/iniquity ) which has affected the children. Lets say it this way; God sees that the children, because of the affects of the parents choices, are now in the hospital trying to recover from this disease imposed upon them. God is sitting next to their bed, holding their hand, trying everything he can to be able get them healthy again.

Back to Genesis 3:8-9 why does God ask them “Where are you?” I believe God is trying to say “I can see that you are hiding; I can see that you have sinned; and I can see that you are helpless without me. Will you call out to me and draw me near because I can fix the problems sin has created?”

I agree that the children are affected by their parents choices, but I do not agree that “God does ‘punish’ to the fourth generation only in the sense that He allows natural consequences to occur.” In saying “He allows” there is an implication that he is ok with it, he condones it, he could stop it but chooses not to.

God is drawing close to everyone (we are all affected by the choices of our parents) and calling out to them asking if they will allow him to fix it. He can fix it.

I like that Mike. Really good thoughts. Thank you for not just having a different point of view but also sharing. Such conversation amongst the brethren results in iron sharpening iron and allows greater riches to be discovered. I so wish people would not get stuck in the place of disagreement and defensiveness but allow the ” relational” dynamic that God created us to experience, result in something greater than can be discovered by the two than the one! I love the opportunity that conflict brings if we embrace it as something that can result in a greater discovery or creation.

So….just read the above article and response…and as I’ve been studying myself …. there is the reality that God seems to hand people over to their own desires as He doesn’t force people to see things through His Truth….

Where I have landed is that yes…we all have certain things that we just won’t know… like how many scales were on the snake that Moses’s staff got thrown down to and made a new creation…and if the number of scales were equal to the number of rings on the tree it came from…. pointless rabbit trails to distract from the overall message.

And while we also don’t like to hear that the Bible is complicated and written by man’s hands and we shouldn’t trust it and it is full of contradictions…is this just the gossip being promoted and spread more than the Gospel?

We all seem to have our own opinions and where Jesus prayed for His disciples to be on the same page with Him as He is with His Father… that’s pretty intimate! The very nature of God in flesh. Not doing what He (Son) wanted …but to do His Father’s will. Yet also was prophecied to be called the Everlasting Father and Prince of peace… why do we as followers find it so easy to just “agree to disagree”? For the sake of maintaining peace?

I can see where Jesus wanted to protect the children as a hen does (this does NOT mean that Jesus self identified as poultry of the opposite sex) but as a protecting nurturing provider….but the people weren’t willing to let Him… which goes to the side of free will…that often has us bound to leaning on our own understanding…where Jesus promised us the Holy Spirit (when we are born again) to guide us in all truth.

I see the visiting of the iniquity of the sins as both a place where generations of sin can be discussed between the Savior and sinner and there is an opportunity to have the slate washed clean and break the cycle…and yet the child of the sinner prior that passed down has their own responsibility to repent if so desired by the parent….the child is not gonna be punished in place of the parent for the parents sin…but for their own (that was taught or caught).

I pray that all the denominations that seem to have their own set of bread crumbs they put down to in essence say. “Come along little ducklings” “follow us as we follow Christ” can seemingly make their own version of Who God is “to them”.

I may just be venting to others that are like minded…yet does God want us to be like minded with people that are in their safe spaces and holy huddle groups…while tip toes on thin ice over hot water as to not offend?

I may be all over the place with my thoughts…for that I’m guilty and still in my holy boot camp called sanctification. I do pray for unity and not just for unity sake. The tower of Babel represents people that were all on the same page and yet not following God…

Jesus was never afraid to speak truth and gave us not a spirit of fear..but of power. The power to forgive others as we have been forgiven in Him… forgiveness is huge and necessary for redemption.

It bothers me that “love” has been hijacked by the culture and redefined to affirm people in their sins…and the watered down gospel becomes a contradictory thing when people are basing their ministry on feelings…

Not wanting to “push people away”…yet we see that the Bible says the preaching of the cross is foolishness to those that are perishing… God’s desire is that none should perish…and yet the path to destruction is wide and narrow is the path to life (through the One door Jesus)

I’m glad to see others that study as well and I pray that we don’t lose sight of Jesus through theological rabbit trails.

Another place I seem to differ from a large group that see things differently is eternal conscious torment…. I don’t believe that God will punish beyond the crimes offense. Why subject a sinner who is here for a vapor to an eternity of never-ending torment?? Why are we trying to scare people out of hell and yet call God merciful and just? Hell is the default and we all would go there if it weren’t for the sacrifice of Jesus in our place…but He doesn’t go to the cross guilty of idolatry (loving the creation more than the Creator) but there is a necessary Way to restore and that tree(cross) was the vehicle that the Father chose and Jesus was willing even unto death to trust and obey…

Just a few more things to add to the discussion…

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What does it mean when God says He will "visit the iniquity of the fathers on the children and grandchildren to the third and fourth generations"?

Exodus 34:7

NIV - 7 Maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation.

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He who Visits the Sins of the Fathers upon the Children

Meet O.J. Simpson's kids, including 2 with Nicole Brown

• O.J. Simpson died on April 10, according to a statement from his family.
• He was found not guilty of murdering his ex-wife, Nicole Brown, in a highly publicized 1995 trial.
• He had two children with Brown and three with his first wife, Marguerite Whitley.

O.J. Simpson 's family confirmed on Thursday that the former football player had died on April 10 after being diagnosed with cancer. He was 76 years old.

While Simpson never directly confirmed his diagnosis, he did allude to it in February, sharing a video to X where he told his followers: "My health is good, obviously I'm dealing with some issues."

Simpson, who was married twice, fathered five children.

Simpson married Marguerite Whitley in 1967 when they were both teenagers, and they had three children together. In 1977, the football player started dating Nicole Brown , and he divorced Whitley in 1979.

He and Brown got married in 1985, and they were together for seven years. They had two children before she filed for divorce in 1992.

In 1995, Simpson was acquitted of the 1994 murder of Brown and her friend, Ronald Goldman.

Meet Simpson's five kids.

Arnelle Simpson

Arnelle Simpson is the ex-football star's first daughter with Marguerite L. Whitley. She was born in December 1968, saying during her father's murder trial that it was "the same day my dad won the Heisman trophy," The Washington Post reported at the time.

Arnelle told the jury during the trial that her father was "very upset, emotional, confused" when she spoke to him after police told him about the murder of Nicole Brown Simpson, per the Post. At the time of the June 1994 murders, Arnelle was living in a guest house on Simpson's property.

Arnelle also spoke during her father's parole hearing after he spent nine years in prison in relation to a 2007 robbery. During her statement, she called him her "best friend" and "rock," ABC News reported.

"We just want him to come home," Arnelle said at the time. "This has been really, truly hard… I know that he is remorseful."

Jason Simpson

Jason is Simpson and Whitley's first son. He was 24 at the time of the 1984 killings , born in 1970.

As NBC News reported, Jason tried to speak with his father when Simpson arrived at his Brentwood home after his famous televised 1994 car chase. Police, however, stopped Jason before he could reach Simpson and detained him. Jason did not face any charges.

The Los Angeles Times reported in 2016 that Jason was living a quiet life out of the public eye and working as a chef at an Atlanta restaurant called St. Cecilia. A profile that appears to belong to Jason on the Charleston Wine + Food Festival website indicates that he has more recently worked as the executive chef at Golden Eagle and Muchacho , two sister restaurants in the Atlanta area.

Aaren Simpson

Simpson and his first wife had one more daughter, Aaren, who was born in 1977. However, Aaren died at 23 months old after drowning in a swimming pool.

Sydney Brooke Simpson

Sydney Brooke Simpson was born in 1985 and was 8 years old when her mother was murdered in 1994. After Brown's death and amid her father's trial, she was looked after by her maternal grandparents, Louis Brown and Juditha Brown.

According to The Los Angeles Times , she studied at Boston University where she graduated with a degree in Sociology. She later moved to St. Petersburg, Florida, near her brother Jason.

Simpson seemingly has no presence on social media and appears to keep her life private.

Justin Ryan Simpson

Simpson's youngest child Justin was born in 1988 and was 5 years old at the time of his mother's murder. Along with his sister, Justin was also looked after by his grandparents during his father's trial and kept away from the media growing up.

When "The People v. O.J. Simpson," a TV series that dramatized the case, was airing on FX in 2016 and catapulted the Simpson family back into the spotlight, the Tampa Bay Times spoke to Justin about his life at the time. He told them that he was working in real estate and explained why he lives in Florida.

"It's a great place to live, why not St. Pete? It's great here," he said.

A Zillow profile that appears to belong to Justin reads: "Justin has seen a diverse spectrum of markets from Los Angeles to Chicago, Miami and Atlanta. Having spent years in multi-family renovation and income properties, Justin has turned his focus to helping others succeed as he has."

It continued: "Having a family immersed in hospitality, Justin sets himself apart by dominating customer service and his communication/negotiation skills give his clients the competitive edge.''

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Parents of Michigan School Shooter Sentenced to 10 to 15 Years in Prison

Jennifer and James Crumbley, whose son killed four people, each faced up to 15 years in prison for involuntary manslaughter convictions.

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By Jacey Fortin and Anna Betts

Jennifer and James Crumbley, who were convicted of involuntary manslaughter for failing to prevent their teenage son from killing four fellow students in the deadliest school shooting in Michigan’s history, were each sentenced on Tuesday to 10 to 15 years in prison.

Their separate jury trials ended in guilty verdicts in February and March , making them the first parents in the country to be convicted over the deaths caused by their child in a mass shooting.

Involuntary manslaughter charges carry a penalty in Michigan of up to 15 years in prison, and prosecutors asked in sentencing memos filed to the court last week that the Crumbleys each serve at least 10 years. Both have been in jail for more than two years while awaiting trial and will receive credit for time served.

“Parents are not expected to be psychic,” Judge Cheryl Matthews of the Oakland County Circuit Court in Pontiac, Mich., said before issuing the sentence. “But these convictions are not about poor parenting. These convictions confirm repeated acts or lack of acts that could have halted an oncoming runaway train — repeatedly ignoring things that would make a reasonable person feel the hair on the back of her neck stand up.”

Before the hearing, prosecutors said that Ms. Crumbley, 46, was asking to be sentenced to house arrest on her defense lawyer’s property, rather than serving prison time. And Mr. Crumbley, 47, said that he had been wrongly convicted and his sentence should amount to the time he had already served in prison, adding that he felt “absolutely horrible” about what had happened.

On Tuesday, each of them spoke in the hearing before the judge pronounced sentence.

“I stand today not to ask for your forgiveness, as I know it may be beyond reach, but to express my sincerest apologies for the pain that has been caused,” Ms. Crumbley said in court, addressing the relatives of students who were killed.

Mr. Crumbley also apologized. “I cannot express how much I wish that I had known what was going on with him or what was going to happen, because I absolutely would have done a lot of things differently,” he said.

Relatives of some of the victims also spoke during the hearing, describing the overwhelming effects the shooting had on their lives.

“The ripple effects of both James’s and Jennifer’s failures to act have devastated us all,” said Jill Soave, the mother of Justin Shilling, 17, who was killed in the shooting at Oxford High School on Nov. 30, 2021. “This tragedy was completely preventable. If only they had done something, your honor, anything, to shift the course events on Nov. 30, then our four angels would be here today.”

Steve St. Juliana, whose daughter, Hana, 14, was killed, said that the Crumbleys continued to fail to take responsibility for what had happened.

“They chose to stay quiet,” he said. “They chose to ignore the warning signs. And now, as we’ve heard through all of the objections, they continue to choose to blame everyone but themselves.”

The Crumbleys’ son, Ethan, was 15 when he carried out the shooting that killed Justin and Hana, as well as Madisyn Baldwin, 17, and Tate Myre, 16. Seven others were injured. Ethan Crumbley pleaded guilty to 24 charges, including first-degree murder, and was sentenced last year to life in prison without parole . He is still eligible to appeal that decision. His parents may appeal, too.

In the trials of both parents, prosecutors focused in part on their failure to remove their son from school after he made a violent drawing on the morning of the shooting. It included a written plea for help.

They also emphasized Ethan’s access to a handgun that Mr. Crumbley had purchased. And they said that Ms. Crumbley had missed signs that her son was struggling with his mental health, adding that she took him to a gun range just days before the shooting.

Defense lawyers for both parents said they could not have foreseen the unspeakable violence their son would commit.

Ms. Crumbley grew up in Clarkston, a Detroit suburb about 20 minutes from Oxford, her lawyer said during a hearing after the couple’s arrest in 2021 . Before her arrest, she had worked as a marketing director, her lawyer said.

Mr. Crumbley’s job history included work at a handful of small software and technology companies.

The couple once lived in Florida but returned to Michigan several years ago, their lawyers said. They bought their home near downtown Oxford in 2015.

The trials of Jennifer and James Crumbley became a lightning rod for issues of parental responsibility at a time of high-profile gun violence by minors. In recent months, parents in other states have pleaded guilty to charges of reckless conduct or neglect after their children injured or killed others with guns.

But the manslaughter charges against the Crumbleys were unique, and legal experts said their trials could serve as a playbook for other prosecutors who seek to hold parents accountable in the future.

Ekow Yankah, a professor at the University of Michigan Law School, said the effect of the ruling on Tuesday might be felt beyond the state.

“This is going to be precedent, most obviously in Michigan and its home jurisdiction, but prosecutors all over the country will see this as a new and viable form of liability,” Mr. Yankah said. “I think we should not underestimate the precedential power of this case, even as we recognize that the facts were quite extraordinary.”

For Matthew Schneider, a former United States attorney in Michigan, what makes this case so different from many others is that most criminal sentences are related to the actions of a defendant, rather than being “about inactions, and how the inactions of a person result in a criminal sentence.”

The sentencing is “very much about making an example of the defendants,” Mr. Schneider said. “This is a shot across the bow to all parents, to all people who have firearms in their house, to keep them locked up, if they could be in the hands of the wrong people.”

Jacey Fortin covers a wide range of subjects for the National desk of The Times, including extreme weather, court cases and state politics all across the country. More about Jacey Fortin

Anna Betts reports on national events, including politics, education, and natural or man-made disasters, among other things. More about Anna Betts

Exodus 34:7 New King James Version

7  ( A ) keeping mercy for thousands, ( B ) forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, ( C ) by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children and the children’s children to the third and the fourth generation.”

Cross references

• Exodus 34:7 : Ex. 20:6
• Exodus 34:7 : Ps. 103:3, 4; Dan. 9:9; Eph. 4:32; 1 John 1:9
• Exodus 34:7 : Josh. 24:19; Job 10:14; Mic. 6:11; Nah. 1:3

Scripture taken from the New King James Version®. Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson. Used by permission. All rights reserved.

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Father sues Texas Hindu temple, alleging it branded 11-year-old with hot iron

A Texas man is suing a local Hindu temple, alleging it branded his son with a hot iron during a cultural ceremony. 

Vijay Cheruvu, of Fort Bend County, said he did not give his consent for his son to participate in the event in August, during which he alleges several children were branded in front of a group of adults.

The lawsuit , filed last week in Texas’ 458th District Court, says Cheruvu’s son was burned on both shoulders against his will, causing extreme pain, permanent skin damage, an infection and emotional trauma. 

“I was shocked. I didn’t know how to handle it. My primary concern is for my son’s well-being,” Cheruvu said at a news conference covered by local TV channels. 

The lawsuit names two defendants: the Ashtalakshmi Temple in Sugar Land, where, it says, the ceremony took place, and the temple’s parent company, non-profit Hindu organization Jeeyar Educational Trust USA. 

Neither responded to requests for comment. 

Photos of the 11-year-old child’s shoulders in the original complaint show scabbed-over burn scars, one in the shape of the Hindu elephant god Ganesh.

Cheruvu’s attorney, Brant Stogner, said at the news conference: “This is not a ceremony that is widely used across Hinduism. This is something that’s a very small sect.” 

Stogner said that even if the child consented to the branding, it’s illegal in Texas to allow a minor to receive such a tattoo or mark. In a victim impact statement read at the news conference, the 11-year-old wrote, “it hurted so much that I almost cried.” 

“They knew what they did was very wrong because they told me to keep it secret from everyone else,” he wrote. “But I had to tell my Dad when the pain got worse and it became infected.”

Cheruvu is seeking $1 million in damages to cover the boy’s “extensive” medical treatment, as well as the emotional toll of the event, the lawsuit says.

For more from NBC Asian America,  sign up for our weekly newsletter .

Sakshi Venkatraman is a reporter for NBC Asian America.